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	<title>Comments on: Compelling</title>
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		<title>By: Iain</title>
		<link>http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/2005/05/14/687/comment-page-1/#comment-999</link>
		<dc:creator>Iain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 May 2005 10:59:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/blog/?p=687#comment-999</guid>
		<description>&quot;what our so-called compulsary voting does is help prevent the formation of an under-class and our entire system shifting to the right&quot;

Given the success of Lynton Crosby and the various concentration camps built up for &quot;processing&quot; asylum seekers, how&#039;s that working out for you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;what our so-called compulsary voting does is help prevent the formation of an under-class and our entire system shifting to the right&#8221;</p>
<p>Given the success of Lynton Crosby and the various concentration camps built up for &#8220;processing&#8221; asylum seekers, how&#8217;s that working out for you?</p>
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		<title>By: Rebekka Power</title>
		<link>http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/2005/05/14/687/comment-page-1/#comment-996</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebekka Power</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 May 2005 01:22:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/blog/?p=687#comment-996</guid>
		<description>You can just get your paper, and put it into the ballot box unmarked (although why anyone would want to do this is beyond me). You still have the freedom not to vote - what our so-called compulsary voting does is help prevent the formation of an under-class and our entire system shifting to the right, like in the US, where poor and ethnic people don&#039;t vote, and so can be utterly ignored by governments - leading to the abandonment of the welfare system (after all, if welfare recipients don&#039;t vote, why the hell would an elected government bother helping them?), the medical system (the rich white guys who vote can afford private health cover) and the education system (except for the schools in the areas where aforementioned rich white guys live). Having to turn up and have your name ticked off the roll every couple of years is a small price to pay for safe-guarding the rights of the disadvantaged, and is not exactly an enormous threat to freedom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can just get your paper, and put it into the ballot box unmarked (although why anyone would want to do this is beyond me). You still have the freedom not to vote &#8211; what our so-called compulsary voting does is help prevent the formation of an under-class and our entire system shifting to the right, like in the US, where poor and ethnic people don&#8217;t vote, and so can be utterly ignored by governments &#8211; leading to the abandonment of the welfare system (after all, if welfare recipients don&#8217;t vote, why the hell would an elected government bother helping them?), the medical system (the rich white guys who vote can afford private health cover) and the education system (except for the schools in the areas where aforementioned rich white guys live). Having to turn up and have your name ticked off the roll every couple of years is a small price to pay for safe-guarding the rights of the disadvantaged, and is not exactly an enormous threat to freedom.</p>
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		<title>By: Neil</title>
		<link>http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/2005/05/14/687/comment-page-1/#comment-980</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2005 00:14:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/blog/?p=687#comment-980</guid>
		<description>On the subject of incentive voting, another suggestion is having a prize draw.  I personally like the idea of a payment of 10 pounds (it is redistributive after all!). There is no reason why people couldn&#039;t be given vouchers cashable at post Offices and banks! The advantage of incentive voting over compulsory voting is that it still leaves people a choice of not voting and it means that people will be more willing to register to vote as well. 

Compulsory voting could lead (like the poll tax) to people disappearing off the register, which defeats the object of the exercise. Chasing people for fines could also prove expensive under compulsory voting. Both these methods would also reduce the gap in turnout between European, local and General elections. 

To combat fraud any payment would have to be accompanied by the production of photo id, but I think this is long overdue in our voting process anyway! Our voting system seems to rely too much on trust.

A lot of people find it insulting that a financial incentive is needed to encourage turnout. I think it could be seen as an expenses payment. It does happen to cost time and money to go to the voting booth. 

It is I suppose a sad indictment of political engagement that this might be needed. Voting is supposed to be a civic duty. However. in this case I think the ends justify the means. 

Overall I think that the differential turnout between rich and poor, young and old, is too important not to be addressed. Of course the present voting system means your geographical location affects the importance of your vote, and this has to be changed as well.  Every vote should have equal importance! Lets move to AV+ as a first step on the road to proportionality! </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the subject of incentive voting, another suggestion is having a prize draw.  I personally like the idea of a payment of 10 pounds (it is redistributive after all!). There is no reason why people couldn&#8217;t be given vouchers cashable at post Offices and banks! The advantage of incentive voting over compulsory voting is that it still leaves people a choice of not voting and it means that people will be more willing to register to vote as well. </p>
<p>Compulsory voting could lead (like the poll tax) to people disappearing off the register, which defeats the object of the exercise. Chasing people for fines could also prove expensive under compulsory voting. Both these methods would also reduce the gap in turnout between European, local and General elections. </p>
<p>To combat fraud any payment would have to be accompanied by the production of photo id, but I think this is long overdue in our voting process anyway! Our voting system seems to rely too much on trust.</p>
<p>A lot of people find it insulting that a financial incentive is needed to encourage turnout. I think it could be seen as an expenses payment. It does happen to cost time and money to go to the voting booth. </p>
<p>It is I suppose a sad indictment of political engagement that this might be needed. Voting is supposed to be a civic duty. However. in this case I think the ends justify the means. </p>
<p>Overall I think that the differential turnout between rich and poor, young and old, is too important not to be addressed. Of course the present voting system means your geographical location affects the importance of your vote, and this has to be changed as well.  Every vote should have equal importance! Lets move to AV+ as a first step on the road to proportionality!</p>
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		<title>By: Videorideo</title>
		<link>http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/2005/05/14/687/comment-page-1/#comment-976</link>
		<dc:creator>Videorideo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2005 21:06:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/blog/?p=687#comment-976</guid>
		<description>Not sure Aussies have to even pretend to mark the ballot paper - they may be able to collect it and stuff it straight in the box if they don&#039;t want to vote.  David, can you clarify?  As for incentivisation, that was just one top of the head idea ... free ice creams on a hot day is another.  Maybe it just needs to be made more fun ... there again, why don&#039;t we vote at weekends?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure Aussies have to even pretend to mark the ballot paper &#8211; they may be able to collect it and stuff it straight in the box if they don&#8217;t want to vote.  David, can you clarify?  As for incentivisation, that was just one top of the head idea &#8230; free ice creams on a hot day is another.  Maybe it just needs to be made more fun &#8230; there again, why don&#8217;t we vote at weekends?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/2005/05/14/687/comment-page-1/#comment-975</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2005 12:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/blog/?p=687#comment-975</guid>
		<description>You don&#039;t just have to turn up to the polling station - you also have to mark (or pretend to mark) a ballot paper and put it in the ballot box. At least, thats what &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.abc.net.au/elections/federal/2004/items/200406/s1140761.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;my research&lt;/a&gt; told me. You can obviously spoil your paper, but you are still compelled to go through the very act of voting, which is no longer fair, as I outlined above.

Knocking a tenner off Council Tax is a nice idea - but as CT is assessed by household and not by individual, that will probably benefit some more than others. Also it won&#039;t be such an incentive to those who don&#039;t pay council tax such as students, and those on benefits who received council tax benefit - parts of society that often produce the lowest turnout.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You don&#8217;t just have to turn up to the polling station &#8211; you also have to mark (or pretend to mark) a ballot paper and put it in the ballot box. At least, thats what <a href="http://www.abc.net.au/elections/federal/2004/items/200406/s1140761.htm" rel="nofollow">my research</a> told me. You can obviously spoil your paper, but you are still compelled to go through the very act of voting, which is no longer fair, as I outlined above.</p>
<p>Knocking a tenner off Council Tax is a nice idea &#8211; but as CT is assessed by household and not by individual, that will probably benefit some more than others. Also it won&#8217;t be such an incentive to those who don&#8217;t pay council tax such as students, and those on benefits who received council tax benefit &#8211; parts of society that often produce the lowest turnout.</p>
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		<title>By: Videorideo</title>
		<link>http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/2005/05/14/687/comment-page-1/#comment-974</link>
		<dc:creator>Videorideo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2005 12:16:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/blog/?p=687#comment-974</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about incentivising voting e.g. £10 off your Council Tax bill (or something along those lines) rather than punishing nonvoting?  Democracy costs, and Councils having to register thousands of nonvoters is money down the drain.<br />
I think David Tiley has neutralised Chris&#8217;s argument &#8211; in Oz you don&#8217;t have to vote, you just have to turn up.  That sounds good to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Iain</title>
		<link>http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/2005/05/14/687/comment-page-1/#comment-972</link>
		<dc:creator>Iain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2005 09:53:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/blog/?p=687#comment-972</guid>
		<description>If you&#039;re going to pass a law making voting compulsory, then to be even vaguely sensible you&#039;ve also got to do the following:

1) Move to a fixed term, rather than the PM calling one whenever he feels like it. I don&#039;t want to cancel my holiday abroad in order to vote because Tony thinks next month would be convenient for him.

2) Come up with something so that people don&#039;t get punished (after all, a law with no associated punishment for breaking it is pointless) just because Royal Mail managed to lose your postal vote down the back of the sorting machine, or you broke an arm and spent the day in hospital.

Personally, I think it&#039;s a really, really bad idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you&#8217;re going to pass a law making voting compulsory, then to be even vaguely sensible you&#8217;ve also got to do the following:</p>
<p>1) Move to a fixed term, rather than the PM calling one whenever he feels like it. I don&#8217;t want to cancel my holiday abroad in order to vote because Tony thinks next month would be convenient for him.</p>
<p>2) Come up with something so that people don&#8217;t get punished (after all, a law with no associated punishment for breaking it is pointless) just because Royal Mail managed to lose your postal vote down the back of the sorting machine, or you broke an arm and spent the day in hospital.</p>
<p>Personally, I think it&#8217;s a really, really bad idea.</p>
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		<title>By: david tiley</title>
		<link>http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/2005/05/14/687/comment-page-1/#comment-965</link>
		<dc:creator>david tiley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 May 2005 14:22:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/blog/?p=687#comment-965</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s debate in Australia about compulsory voting, but by and large we like it. it is not actually compulsory to vote, only to be marked off the role. That is sure a small civil obligation to live in a democracy, like a very tiny piece of taxation.

I think it tends to make people more conscientious. It is not so much that we have to go, as a realisation that everyone does, so there&#039;s a wave of thinking and talking about it that goes around the community. People think that if they are going anyway, they should give it some consideration.

I personally don&#039;t like the fact that our future lies in the hands of swinging voters, but that is really the case in any system. And swinging voters do have a good argument in their defence - why should their future depend on rusted on voters who are immune to thought? Like me, really. No-one is every going to budge me from the left.

There is no such thing as a perfect system. One of our big bugbears is the sheer size of electorates. They can cover tens of thousands of square kms, and only represent a handful of people - many less than in a city electorate. And in the senate, there&#039;s the same number from each state, which is hardly fair. 

My personal bete noir is the right to advertise. When you get parties allowed to advertise on television, particularly in 30 second grabs, then you have a recipe for trash sloganeering. We had a vote a few years ago about abolishing this, but the dumb democrats decided it was a restriction on free speech. Need a minder to find their mouths, some of those people. 

I want a bloody law about accuracy in campaigning. Even if these things can only be contested after an election and are hideously technical, they would soon be a deterrent, particularly with a few regulations about innuendo. 

Might work. Never know. Britain needs proportional representation, or at least preferential voting. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s debate in Australia about compulsory voting, but by and large we like it. it is not actually compulsory to vote, only to be marked off the role. That is sure a small civil obligation to live in a democracy, like a very tiny piece of taxation.</p>
<p>I think it tends to make people more conscientious. It is not so much that we have to go, as a realisation that everyone does, so there&#8217;s a wave of thinking and talking about it that goes around the community. People think that if they are going anyway, they should give it some consideration.</p>
<p>I personally don&#8217;t like the fact that our future lies in the hands of swinging voters, but that is really the case in any system. And swinging voters do have a good argument in their defence &#8211; why should their future depend on rusted on voters who are immune to thought? Like me, really. No-one is every going to budge me from the left.</p>
<p>There is no such thing as a perfect system. One of our big bugbears is the sheer size of electorates. They can cover tens of thousands of square kms, and only represent a handful of people &#8211; many less than in a city electorate. And in the senate, there&#8217;s the same number from each state, which is hardly fair. </p>
<p>My personal bete noir is the right to advertise. When you get parties allowed to advertise on television, particularly in 30 second grabs, then you have a recipe for trash sloganeering. We had a vote a few years ago about abolishing this, but the dumb democrats decided it was a restriction on free speech. Need a minder to find their mouths, some of those people. </p>
<p>I want a bloody law about accuracy in campaigning. Even if these things can only be contested after an election and are hideously technical, they would soon be a deterrent, particularly with a few regulations about innuendo. </p>
<p>Might work. Never know. Britain needs proportional representation, or at least preferential voting.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Edwards</title>
		<link>http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/2005/05/14/687/comment-page-1/#comment-963</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 May 2005 10:53:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/blog/?p=687#comment-963</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;None of the above&quot; could possibly work if, when it won an election, no MP were returned from that election, a by election had to be called immediately, and no one who stood in the General Election could stand again.&lt;/i&gt;

I believe this (probably without the last part) &lt;b&gt;is&lt;/b&gt; how it works in elections to the Russian Duma - at least, it was when open Duma elections started (or resumed). At that first election, at least, several contests actually did have to be re-run because abstentions were too high - they were using something like the French presidential system, with run-offs, but the rule was that the winning candidate had to have the support of 50% of the electorate, and in some constituencies that wasn&#039;t possible even if the votes of the &lt;b&gt;second&lt;/b&gt; candidate were included. (Or, er, something like that - I&#039;ve probably got this horribly wrong.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;None of the above&#8221; could possibly work if, when it won an election, no MP were returned from that election, a by election had to be called immediately, and no one who stood in the General Election could stand again.</i></p>
<p>I believe this (probably without the last part) <b>is</b> how it works in elections to the Russian Duma &#8211; at least, it was when open Duma elections started (or resumed). At that first election, at least, several contests actually did have to be re-run because abstentions were too high &#8211; they were using something like the French presidential system, with run-offs, but the rule was that the winning candidate had to have the support of 50% of the electorate, and in some constituencies that wasn&#8217;t possible even if the votes of the <b>second</b> candidate were included. (Or, er, something like that &#8211; I&#8217;ve probably got this horribly wrong.)</p>
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		<title>By: Chris H</title>
		<link>http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/2005/05/14/687/comment-page-1/#comment-962</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 May 2005 06:33:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/blog/?p=687#comment-962</guid>
		<description>You are right on the money. What compulsory voting (as in Australia) does is make politicians impossibly lazy. After all, why should they do anything helpful when voter turnout is assured.

I have been told by Australians that the main method of protest there is to spoil the ballot. They have a very complex preferential voting system (at least for their Senate) so it&#039;s easy to spoil it.

&quot;None of the above&quot; could possibly work if, when it won an election, no MP were returned from that election, a by election had to be called immediately, and no one who stood in the General Election could stand again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are right on the money. What compulsory voting (as in Australia) does is make politicians impossibly lazy. After all, why should they do anything helpful when voter turnout is assured.</p>
<p>I have been told by Australians that the main method of protest there is to spoil the ballot. They have a very complex preferential voting system (at least for their Senate) so it&#8217;s easy to spoil it.</p>
<p>&#8220;None of the above&#8221; could possibly work if, when it won an election, no MP were returned from that election, a by election had to be called immediately, and no one who stood in the General Election could stand again.</p>
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